Hello friends and readers and readerfriends! Bit of a heads up, we’re only covering one chapter this week, so we can get back on a better rhythm that matches the thematic sections of The Dragon Reborn. Thus, this week will only cover Chapter 40, and next week will cover all of Perrin’s adventures in chapters 41-44.
Fortunately for us, Chapter 40, A Hero in the Night, is both fun and really interesting. It’s strange that we’re still getting to know Mat for the first time, despite all the history we have from The Eye of The World and The Great Hunt. I was particularly struck this week by Mat’s need to insist that he’s not as kind as he is, and the way he impulsively wants to help other people. If you had asked me before this chapter, I would certainly have said that Mat is the most selfish, or at least the most self-centered, of the Emond’s Field folks, but I hadn’t really expected him to have this view of himself, and I’m a little confused about where this impulse to insist that he doesn’t care is coming from. Self-preservation is my best guess. Or maybe Mat picked up somewhere that generosity is weakness? That doesn’t seem like a lesson he would have learned from his clever Da or any of the other folks of the Two Rivers, though. But perhaps his encounter with Aludra will shine some more light on the question.
Chapter 40 opens with the Gray Gull coming into the docks at Aringill, where Mat and Thom find absolute throngs of people, some bustling about carrying possessions, others sitting or standing alone or in family groups as the children cling, crying, to their parents. Mat can see that many of the ships on the Erinin are not occupied with river trade at all, but rather with ferrying people over to Aringill from another town on the far bank.
Mat tells himself he’s not interested in politics, and just wants people to stop telling him he’s an Andorman “just because of some map.” He also notices that Captain Mallia is watching him from the tiller. The Captain never gave up trying to find out what Mat’s mission was until Mat finally showed him the sealed letter and explained that he was carrying a private message from the Daughter-Heir to Queen Morgase. Privately, Mat had loosened the seal with a heated knife and read the contents, but the letter hadn’t contained any sort of explanation as to why men were coming after Mat. Mat is certain that there is some kind of code or hidden message in the letter, even though Thom, with his experience in the Game of Houses, hadn’t been able to make anything out of it, either. Mat’s determined to get that letter delivered and out of his hands as soon as possible.
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Thom meanwhile, is annoyed that no one in this overflowing town cares that a gleeman has just arrived. He observes that half the people look like they are starving, and that it will be difficult to find any room in an inn. He also points out that someone might be tempted to do violence to Mat if he keeps eating the way he ate on the ship, but Mat insists that he hasn’t been eating that much for days now (the hunger had just vanished one day, as though Tar Valon had lost its last bit of hold on him) though he’s been ordering the same amount and throwing it overboard to mess with Mallia.
Captain Mallia, still butting his nose into their business, offers one of his men to clear a path through the “rabble” on the docks, which Mat sees as a ploy to find out which inn they’re staying at. He throws Mallia off by suggesting he might have another meal and a game of dice on the ship before leaving, and the Captain is relieved when Mat decides against that plan. He’s already lost plenty of money to the lucky young man.
Thom asks why Mat has to taunt Mallia like that, and Mat replies that the Captain deserves the taunting, although he admits to himself that the prank of throwing the extra food over the side doesn’t seem so funny now that he can see all these hungry people. One woman, scanning the arrivals as if looking for someone as her three crying children cling to her, catches his attention, and on impulse, he digs a fistful of coins out of his pockets and presses them into her hands, moving away before she can say anything. He insists it’s not a big deal, both to Thom and to himself, and tries to avoid looking anyone else in the face as they continue on.
They learn from a guard on the docks that most people are sleeping under hedges, and they’ll be lucky to find horses haven’t been slaughtered for food. Thom’s disgusted, but the guardsman tells them that it really is that bad; people are arriving faster than food can be brought to feed them all. But it won’t last much longer, because the orders have come down that this is the last day people will be accepted in the crossing. Starting tomorrow, anyone attempting to land refugees at Aringill will be sent back.
Thom doesn’t think that it sounds very like Morgase to cut people off when they are suffering, but Mat, with a dismissive “who else could it be?” is more interested in finding room at an inn. However, they’re laughed out of every place despite Mat’s money and despite Thom playing the gleeman card. Eventually he convinces Mat to try for space in an innkeeper’s stables, and although the innkeeper declares that his stables are only for horses, Mat, spotting dice cups amongst the man’s possessions, challenges him to a game. He wins first the right to stay in the stables, and next, the possession of the innkeepers two horses.
When they go to the stable to check out their “accommodations,” however, Thom is less than enthused, muttering to himself about Mat throwing five sixes to win the toss, and how lately, Mat hasn’t been winning every toss.
I win enough.” Mat was just as relieved not to be winning every throw. Luck was one thing, but remembering that night still sent shivers down his back. Still, for one moment as he shook that dice cup, he had all but known what the pips would be. As he tossed the quarterstaff up into the loft, thunder crashed in the sky. He scrambled up the ladder, calling back to Thom. “This was a good idea. I’d think you would be happy to be in out of the rain tonight.”
They eat a meal of bread and cheese and water—all the innkeeper had to sell them—in the hayloft, and Thom settles back to smoke his pipe. Just then a woman enters the stable with a wagon. She is well-dressed, and able to light a lantern in the dark easily, despite the fact that it’s tricky to use a flint and make sparks in a stable. Mat notices her chewing on a bit of bread from her supplies as though it’s rather hard but she is too hungry to care.
Four big men men, in clothes equally as good as the woman’s, suddenly enter the barn as well, addressing her as Aludra. Their leader, Tammuz, tells her that she would have been left alone if she had been “able to forget the secrets in [her] head” and that she should have known that they would find out that she was making what the Guild alone has the right to make.
When Mat sees them draw daggers with the intent to kill her, he moves, even as he’s calling himself a fool in his head. He grabs one of the doubled ropes suspended from the ceiling and swings down to plow through the group of men, knocking them down. Thom throws Mat his quarterstaff and Mat eventually knocks all the knives away and all the men down.
He tells Aludra that she could have picked a different stable to be murdered in, and she, sheathing a dagger, points out that she would have helped him fight but she didn’t want to get mistaken for one of the men in the fray. As Thom comes down from the loft, Aludra observes that this is like a story, her being rescued by a gleeman and a young hero.
They introduce themselves, and learn that Aludra was an illuminator before Tammuz ruined a performance for the King of Cairhien and almost destroyed a Chapter House. But because Aludra was the Mistress of that Chapter House, she took the blame with the Guild. She also insists that she isn’t telling the secrets of the Guild, as Tammuz claimed, but that she won’t allow herself to starve when she has the ability to make a living creating fireworks.
Aludra declares that she must reward them, but she has no money. Instead she offers a roll of oiled cloth full of different sized fireworks. Thom tells her she mustn’t offer them something so valuable, but she tells him that she has a right to express gratitude as she wishes.
Mat squatted beside her, fascinated. He had seen fireworks twice in his life. Peddlers had brought them to Emond’s Field, at great expense to the Village Council. When he was ten, he had tried to cut one open to see what was inside, and had caused an uproar. Bran al’Vere, the Mayor, had cuffed him; Doral Barran, who had been the Wisdom then, had switched him; and his father had strapped him when he got home. Nobody in the village would talk to him for a month, except for Rand and Perrin, and they mostly told him what a fool he had been. He reached out to touch one of the cylinders. Aludra slapped his hand away.
She explains how the different sizes work—which make a bang, which make a bang and light, which makes sparkles, how the fuses work. Finally, she warns them not to leave the package close to fire or they will explode, and not to cut them open, because exposure to air can often make them explode without fire, and one could lose a finger or even a hand.
Then Aludra prepares to leave, remarking that the men on the floor will expect her to go to Caemlyn so she will maybe head towards Lugard instead. Mat thinks of how long a journey that is, how hungry she had seemed gnawing on that loaf of stale bread, and finds himself offering her a fistful of coins. He can always win more.
She paused with her cloak half around her shoulders, then smiled at Thom as she swept it the rest of the way on. “He is young yet, eh?”
“He is young,” Thom agreed. “And not half so bad as he would like to think himself. Sometimes he is not.”
Mat glowered at both of them and lowered his hand.
As Aludra is leaving, Thom asks how she lit her lantern so quickly in the dark. She isn’t going to tell all her secrets, but she does remark that if she ever perfects them, “sticks” will make her fortune for her.
Then she leaves, out into the rainy night, and Thom remarks that he and Mat should follow, as the men on the floor are starting to stir. They saddle the horses Mat won.
Swinging into his saddle, Mat stared at the rain outside the open door, falling harder than ever. “A bloody hero,” he said. “Thom, if I ever look like acting the hero again, you kick me.”
“And what would you have done differently?”
Mat scowled at him, then pulled up his hood and spread the tail of his cloak over the fat roll tied behind the high cantle of his saddle. Even with oiled cloth, a little more protection from the rain could not hurt. “Just kick me!” He booted his horse in the ribs and galloped into the rainy night.
If you were to place Mat on the D&D alignment scale—I don’t play D&D but I do enjoy the internet’s favorite pastime, after sorting characters into Hogwarts Houses—The Eye of the World Mat would fall into Chaotic Neutral, I think. Not a bad person, but he’s ruled by slightly selfish impulses that don’t really take into account considering what effects will result from his actions, for good or for ill. He wanted to find treasure in Shadar Logoth, for example, but when he actually took the dagger it was from an impulse to protect himself from Mordeth, rather than greed, which to me is more of a neutral choice rather than the “evil” of greed. Even Mat in the White Tower is pretty neutral; he’s concerned first and foremost with his own protection and escape from Tar Valon, and while he has no impulse to harm anyone, he also isn’t really motivated by anything except self-interest when he accepts the duty of carrying Elayne’s letter to Morgase. This Mat, however, is finding himself with charitable and kind impulses, and while perhaps he is right that the money means little to him, he was willing to put himself in danger for Aludra and lose the safe haven he had found for him and Thom, something that we know is very important to Mat.
I’m not really surprised that Mat has good-person impulses. What surprises me is that he is so defensive about them. I’m not sure why it is that he needs to prove to himself, in his own mind, that he didn’t give that mother money because he genuinely cared, that he had to tell himself it was only because the children’s crying was annoying.
Maybe he worries that appearing soft will make him vulnerable to others. That makes sense, and he certainly has reasons to fear being vulnerable, given what he’s been through since he left the Two Rivers. Mat’s self-protective streak is strong, so perhaps that feels at odds with his impulse to step into a conflict that isn’t his. I wonder, too, if there isn’t also a generosity that comes with realizing how many advantages he suddenly has. It isn’t as though he gave away his last piece of bread, Aladdin-style; Mat does have plenty of money, and no reason to believe he can’t replenish it at will. Mat has come suddenly, unexpectedly, and mysteriously, into possession of a great stash of money that, for the moment at least, seems to be eternally replenishable. That his first instinct is to pay that good fortune forward isn’t perhaps as unexpected as Mat, who was raised in a small farming community without much wealth, might think it is. And how lovely to see someone rich not be stingy with it.
I like Mat as a force of chaotic good in the world, especially since he is also ta’veren. Captain Mallia is a cruel, xenophobic monster who thinks entire countries of people should be exterminated or enslaved; he deserves every bit of tormenting Mat inflicted on him and more. Not saying that Mat is being cautious or even wise… but I got a lot of satisfaction out of him hazing Mallia and taking his money. Even the innkeeper who loses his horses to Mat’s dice throws is drawn into it by Mat playing on his greed, so there is a certain sense of justice there, too, despite the fact that Mat totally played the man.
I wonder if Mat’s ta’veren nature has something to do with his new luck powers. I remember, when Rand engaged the Whitecloaks at Baerlon, the narrative described his perceptions of things as distant and “wrapped in wool.” While I’m fairly sure that was a reaction from his earlier channeling, I also see some similarities between that scene and what Mat experienced as he gambled in Tar Valon and discovered that he could not lose. Maybe Mat is influencing the Pattern in small, deliberate ways as he focuses on the fall of the dice. I have been wondering whether Mat’s confidence that his luck with gambling will always continue was foolish or warranted: Since he doesn’t know why his luck is so intense, shouldn’t he be worried that it will stop as soon as it started, and be careful to use what he’s gained as thoughtfully as possible? That is, perhaps, not really his nature, but it’s also possible that he is actually influencing the luck in some way, and so on some level is aware that he has control, and therefore that the luck is here to stay.
We’ve seen the way Rand’s extremely powerful ta’veren-ness has shaped the lives of the people around him in very obvious and even extreme ways. In Chapter 32 Rand muses on the weddings at Jarra, and how he played Rose of the Morning at them. The song makes him think of Egwene, who he once thought he would marry, and perhaps the thoughts of Egwene came because of the marriage, but part of me wondered then if Rand’s mood might have shaped how his ta’veren powers manifested, if his thoughts of Egwene hadn’t been the reason for all those people to suddenly want to be married, as Rand had once dreamed of being. We’ve yet to see a suggestion on Perrin’s end that could be read similarly, but I do find this theory interesting, and I’ll be keeping an eye on it going forward.
I was going to bring it up in one of the sections with Nynaeve and co., but reading the physical description of Aludra make me think of it. The narration in The Dragon Reborn has shifted slightly from the first two books in several ways; for example, I observed in an earlier post that the braid-tugging was never so predominant in The Eye of the Word or The Great Hunt as it is in The Dragon Reborn. Similarly, I’ve noticed a focus on breasts, and the word breasts, that wasn’t there in the earlier novels. Rather than, for example, describing a dress as being embroidered along the breast (a slightly old-fashioned word for chest, and a gender-neutral way of describing that area of the body) or even “embroidered along the bodice” or “bosom,” Jordan continually chooses to use the word breasts. Egwene’s ring “hangs down between her breasts,” as does Nynaeve’s. Women always cross their arms “under their breasts,” conjuring an image of them being lifted up and brought into focus. Mat’s sections, meanwhile, focus heavily on the lips of a woman and whether they would be good for kissing. Aludra has “a small, full mouth that seemed on the point of a pout. Or getting ready for a kiss.” It’s not a hugely dramatic or untoward shift, but it is a noticeable one, and it feels to me like it greatly increases the narrative’s intention to remind us constantly of the sexualization of women, their kissability, their breasts, how much Faile may or may not have a nose that’s too big for her face. It’s especially noticeable in the sections from Egwene’s point-of-view, I think; it’s one thing if the narration is trying to tell me that Mat’s obsessed with kissing, but I don’t think Egwene has any real reason to be focusing on anyone’s breasts that much, and it comes off as just being there to—ahem—titillate the reader.
I really do like Aludra’s character, though: her no-nonsense attitude and her status as an elite craftsperson. I had forgotten her and Tammuz’s names, so it was only after she told the story about the Chapter House in Cairhien that I realized we’d encountered them before. Jordan seems to be very adept at weaving (haha) all these threads back together again and again, which in addition to being a fun sort of Easter egg hunt for the reader, reinforces the concept of this world existing as a woven Pattern, where threads are directed by a higher power and nothing is ever really chance. I wonder if we will see Aludra again, or if her gift of fireworks will serve an important role in Mat and his friends’ futures.
The Illuminators Guild and the rules around it are fascinating, and it just occurred to me this week that having the technology for fireworks means that this world also has the technology for early firearms. But the Illuminators don’t seem to have any interest in weapons, and they guard their secrets closely. But now Mister Mischief Mat has got his hands on them, and really anything could come of this. I don’t know if he will keep them or sell them, or if his interest in fireworks will ultimately allow others—perhaps unsavory types—to get their hands on the technology too. But what I do know is that there is a -10% chance that Mat will listen to Aludra and not open one of those fireworks, and I’d guess about a 50% chance he’ll lose a finger or a hand. Then again, his luck has changed since he foolishly picked up some cursed treasure on his first trip outside the Two Rivers, and perhaps I’m not very wise to place any odds against Matrim Cauthon these days.
And whether or not the men chasing Mat have anything to do with Elayne’s letter? Well, that remains to be seen.
Next week we rejoin Moiraine, Lan, Perrin, and his falcon. We’ll see that all is not right in Illian, learn about darkhounds, worry a lot about Lan and Moriane, and do our level best not to make any stupid jokes about an inn called Easing the Badger.
Sylas K Barrett has so many questions about how ta’veren work. Almost as much as it looks like MoiraIne is about to have.
Now I really want to hear your stupid Easing the Badger jokes. Anyone with me?
OP (Not that Sylas is reading these anymore):
I think you’re mistaking what is driving Mat. Its not self-protection. He readily has thrown himself into danger several times in this story already. Mat isn’t concerned as much with that as he is with personal liberty.
Caring = bondage to Mat. He doesn’t want to care because he doesn’t want to be tied to anything. Freedom is his fundamental desire for himself. Freedom from responsibilities. He’s not a mature person yet. He equates being responsible with bondage, with chains. His Da likely did as well when he was younger, and likely still looks at those reckless days fondly, and has told Mat stories about them. He fears domestication, and instinctively recognizes that this civilizing force is closely related with caring for others. He views freedom to do whatever he wants as life, and restrictions as death.
So, he doesn’t want to care for others, because he feels it will restrict him. But he can’t stop himself. Which is exactly Thom’s point at the end of the chapter when he asked Mat what he would have done differently. He’s pointing out that Mat was free to choose, and saving Aludra is what he chose.
Oh man, it’s so gratifying to know that I’m not the only one who noticed the ‘breast’ thing. I’m doing a reread at the moment, and it is one of the things that is just leaping out at me. Everytime Jordan describes something about a woman that happens above her waist, he uses the word ‘breasts’, and it’s one of those things that once you notice it, you can’t not see it. And I totally agree, it feels gratuitous. Why is a necklace ‘between her breasts’ instead of around her neck, or next to her heart? Why are arms folded ‘under the breasts’ (which…. I fold my arms _over_ my breasts, most women I know do…) instead of juts ‘arms crossed’ or ‘crossed over their chest’? Hell, there’s a passage where a character kills a woman by throwing a knife at her and it is described as ‘the knife blossomed between her breasts’.
@2 Anthony Pero
Spot-on, I think.
@2 Anthony Pero has a big part of it.
I think it’s also true that, if you’re growing up as a kid with, er, limited impulse control, and especially if you’re clever enough to channel that into being a prankster at the level that Mat obviously was, you’re always hearing messages from adults that amount to “you only ever think of yourself.” I read Mat as having internalized that, not in a self-loathing way but in a “that’s just how I am and I like it damn it” way, even as he also absorbed the values of his community that come out in his actions. Hence the disconnect.
S
“and do our level best not to make any stupid jokes about an inn called Easing the Badger.”
NEVER!!!
Regarding the focus more or the word breasts than in the first two books, while I certainly haven’t done an analysis or any thing, it’s notable that the first two books are heavily focused on Rand and to a lesser extent Perrin, who in my estimation would be pointedly trying not to notice women’s breasts. Mat would definitely be more appreciable of women and notice them , while Egwene is probably just thinking of them as what they are, without favor or disfavor.
Also the difference in the clothes being worn would be a factor for Egwene and Nyeave. They started off the series wearing Two rivers wool with conservative cuts, but are being introduced to more revealing styles of dress as the series goes on.
@7:
Your last part is the winner, I think. This is RJ calling attention to the more revealing nature of the clothing, without coming out and saying it (although we do get Nynaeve and Elayne both thinking those thoughts in later books.)
@5:
I had the same thought, but walked it back while writing out what I wrote. I get the impression that while Mat got in trouble, he was treated more like Tom Sawyer by the TR adults. They were exasperated, but relatively charmed by him as well. Not to say there weren’t certain individuals who might have abused him verbally for it. But I think on aggregate, he was less scarred by what the adults might have said than what I would have been in his place.
Sylas kind of picks up on the fact that Mat is an unreliable narrator.
@7, @8. The breasts thing is extremely annoying in these books. There may be some explanation for why it takes off in book 3 as you suggest, but I think a large part is that these books were written by a heterosexual man.
I don’t think most women spend all that much time thinking about their breasts on a day to day basis. I certainly don’t.
But books written by men sometimes have more description of those particular body parts in women’s viewpoints. Farscape made this point really well in the body switching episode when Crichton got into Aeryn’s body.
@10
Most male authors don’t write that much about breasts as well. You don’t see many mentions of Eowyn’s breasts in Lord of the Rings, for example. It’s a Robert Jordan thing, not a male author thing.
re: Mat’s nature. It’s really not that mysterious. I know people in real life who donate anonymously and feel very, very uncomfortable with any type of praise. I think it’s the same for Mat. I think he’s just very uncomfortable with any type of positive light shined on him.
re: Breasts. I’ve said for years that Jordan has a type of…kink? Not saying it’s a negative thing (or positive). He just really likes women and the…sexualization?…of them. I think there was a good bit of an erotica writer in Jordan.
It seems a little strange to me that we focus so much on characters’ sexual preferences and gender identities while simultaneously making sure to not focus on the physical aspects that make up the differences between those preferences and identities. Can someone explain that to me? (Constructively, please. If it’s not clear, I’m being sincere in my ask, not flippant).
Edit: For an example, I think many people would really care about whether Mat was attracted to men vs. women. But then once it’s established that he is attracted to women, it’s like we’re not supposed to care that he likes their lips or their breasts.
@7 .. the breasts thing is just… it’s more than that. Whenever the narrative is talking about women, he always defaults to the word breasts. Like, the example Sylas brought up… Nynaeve’s ring hangs between her breasts. If it is in her own thoughts, wouldn’t it be more likely that she would think “it hangs near her heart”, or “beneath her dress” (ie: it’s covered up because she has to hide it). Women hold things to their breasts, men hold them to their chest. It’s a quirk that… well, as @10 said, once you notice it, it’s annoying. It seems to be a way to sexualize non-sexual things, or like… point out that “these are _women_ we’re talking about, did you notice? not men… but women, they’ve got breasts! that’s how you can tell!” Whether it’s because he’s a heterosexual man or not, it’s a very, very odd quirk. The one that gets me every time is ‘folding their arms under their breasts’, cause… it seems like such an odd way to phrase anything. Why? Most women don’t actually do that, and when I think about it, but _every_ woman in these books does.
I’m bummed that Mat and Aludra never hooked up. I liked their rapport.
You know, I bet Mat complained just as much about doing farm chores. It’s not like he’d actually skip out on doing anything really important but he’s going to whine about it to anyone willing to listen. He’s conditioned himself to complain while doing the things he has to do.
@12 the thing is that Mat lies to himself about being heroic. One assumes the privately charitable aren’t thinking they’re actually proper bastards while making anonymous donations.
I always thought the arms crossed under the breasts was a weird way to phrase it, but as I sit here an try to naturally cross my arms.. they ARE directly under my breasts.
@17 yeah, some women do, but well, after I noticed it this time in my reread I started paying attention to it, and most of the women I know don’t… I don’t. And when angry, chances are you cross them even tighter… which is even less likely to be under your breasts.
Adding to the discussion of Mat’s nature:
I’m not sure he really changes much between books 1 and 3. The difference is whose eyes we see him through. It’s fairly clear that in the Two Rivers he was looked at as a mischief maker and as someone who was always either getting in trouble or suspected of having caused whatever trouble happened. That’s why Egwene and that lot especially continue to think of him as an unreliable mischief maker. They take the most obvious trait and they draw a stereotype of what kind of person that should be. And Mat has since inherited that view of himself (along with some wish to be free and not be bogged down by commitment, which probably partially is handed down by his hinted at previous incarnation as Aemon who saw Manetheren fall because they trusted Aridhol and the White Tower, both of whom betrayed Manetheren in her last days).
It’s also worth remembering the point that Rand makes (Rand and Perrin after all are the ones who truly know him) about how Mat will always complain about the small things. It is in character for Mat to complain when people expect small gratuities from him, but equally he’s that friend who will always be there for you when you need him most. He’s Siuan’s uncle who died running into a burning building to save children. He might not want to be, because it’s easy to be taken advantage of when you’re that guy, but it is who he is.
Also, regarding Mat’s luck, it’s an eternal discussion whether this is something to do with ta’veren and how it manifests itself for Mat. However, Aemon was also known as a gambler, so this connection to being innately lucky does seem to be something that exists within the world. Some guys just really have all the luck. The ta’veren thing amplifies it when there’s a great deal of random chance involved since ta’veren manipulate chance naturally, but there’s something more to it than just ta’veren.
@18 It has to do with the length of your arms. If you have longer arm to torso ratio (it’s not constant, see NBA measures of wingspan to height for a place where this is constantly brought up in real life) your natural bend point of your arms will place them below your breasts, at least assuming you are young and of normal weight.
And this discussion is ridiculous and I’m not going to bother with it any more than that. Being prudish about descriptive language just seems like people looking to be annoyed by something. It’s not like the women of WoT don’t engage in their own gazing (and if you don’t find calfs or whatever sexy the hint is that what is deemed sexy isn’t universal but is determined by cultural norms).
Crossing your arms over your breasts is possible but more than a little uncomfortable. Welcome to the funhouse world of Mat’s self perception vs. his impulses. It only gets better.
@14, I got to disagree with you here. You wear a big,heavy ring on a chain long enough to hang over the sternum you are going to be very aware of it because of the way it knocks against your breasts. Depending on how well endowed and how sensitive you are this could range from low grade discomfort to ouch.
@20 it’s not just descriptions… what I’m saying (and what others I think are saying) is that he seems to only use the word “breasts” when talking about women’s bodies. Their actions… a woman puts her hand to her chest in shock? it’s not her chest, it’s her breast. A woman spills something on the front of her dress? She doesn’t actually spill it on her dress, she spills it on her breasts. A woman gets stabbed in the chest? Nope… a knife ‘blossoms between her breasts’… It’s not him taking time to describe women’s bodies and using the word breasts — which would be one thing, although to be honest, he doesn’t actually do that when describing women, he uses more normal words when actually describing what they look like, he will say bosom or something — but well, a man and a woman could do the exact same action — wiping crumbs away, holding something close to their body, touching their hand to their chest in some sort of emotional gesture, wearing a necklace.. any action involving the torso, and he will use the word ‘breast’ instead of chest (ie: Mat’s wears his medallion under his shirt or around his neck, Nynaeve wears hers ‘nestled between her breasts’). It’s not a ‘gaze’ thing (ie: one character noticing another’s breasts) , because in those moments, it’s not the _characters_ who are noticing the breasts, it’s more like the author making sure to remind the reader that ‘this action is being done by a woman… you know… with breasts…”
But women do have breasts, they tend to be fairly prominent features on their chests. We should ignore this?
If I recall correctly the knife between the breasts line comes from Mat’s self defense killing of a woman he’s been hooked up with for months. It is a very traumatic experience for him. He’s admired and fondled those breasts. Now he’s put a knife between them.
I love that Sylas took the fireworks/gunpowder thing and leapt straight to “Mister Mischief Mat” getting his hands on them and their possible use as firearms or the like. Once again, some great and spot-on anticipation of future plot threads.
I think this should read “as does Nynaeve’s”, unless Nynaeve has been up to something I was unaware of. XD
As for the “breasts” conversation, it never really stood out to me before but I’m doing a re-read right now anyway, so I’ll look for it when I get to that point. I can’t say the phrasing is exactly titillating though, and I don’t necessarily have a problem with the descriptions on their own, but we’ll see if it’s overused to the point of annoyance when I’m looking for it.
@25 – Corrected, thanks!
While I thought the phrasing was odd.. it (or all the other mentions of breasts) never bothered me.. nor did I really notice that it was all that prominent. I appreciate the mental picture of Nynaeve having Lan’s ring hanging between her breast much more than “close to her heart”..
Actually this is an interesting point
Ahh here we start with Matrim Mat “Not A Bloody Hero” Cauthon. Let us go forward and watch as Mat goes on to go to some incredibly heroic stuff, all while pretending to not do it, claiming he doesn’t want to do it, or finding himself in a situation where it would be easier to bow out and then refusing.
Mat’s more of a Chaotic Good who wants to pretend he’s a True Neutral. In the classic position of all trickster gods, he spends more of his time than not in in trouble, mostly because of his own actions, but also is capable of finding his way out of that trouble with cleverness and skill.
@20, Mat apparently has a very nice ass to go with his pretty eyes. Perrin has a fine pair of shoulders and generally power physique. Rand’s height and coloring are attractive,
*mentally whacks Mat with my trident* Having the greatness of gluttony temporarily thrust upon you by magic-induced healing was a fine thing to watch. But deliberately wasting other people’s food just for kicks is un-funny and uncool, barnaclehead. Glad you realized that.
Poor Aludra, punished with exile for what Rand did with those fireworks.
As a Redux commenter noted, Thom’s worry about the fireworks in the bar is a smidgen funny coming from someone who had been smoking in a hayloft.
Liandrin, Aludra, Amathera…there’s a pattern of Taraboner women described as having pouty rosebud lips. It’s weird.
I fold my arms above my breasts. But I’m very buxom, so if I try crossing my arms below them, I don’t have enough arm to cross. Good to know that the position described in WoT is a thing some people actually do.
Elayne’s actual letter to Morgase didn’t have much effect, did it? The mission’s main purpose, as far as the Pattern (and the author) is concerned, was all the other plot-shifting things that involved Mat along his journey and afterward.
I wonder if some of the focusing on breasts wasn’t Jordan’s way of pointing out that those kids from the Two Rivers aren’t kids any more. Basically fore-fronting the idea of them as sexual beings before they start entering into sexual relationships.
Maybe someone should ask Harriet about the change of description moving forward… Was it a knock down drag out argument or did Harriet not even notice? She was his editor and wife.
It is also possible that another author asked Jordan if he was writing for the YA segment… and he got offended. “Oh yeah! I’m going to use the ‘b’ word! How do you like them apples!”
I’m going to go with, he was writing to a mostly male audience. Not exclusively, but there was only one girl in our D&D group and three different gamers dated her before she picked her favorite… she had agency and not because anyone was describing her as a sunrise….
@@@@@ 32 – Couldn’t agree more, and worth noting that this is reflected in the clothing (as others have said). Nynaeve in particular has a whole sub-arc relating to her clothing, going from stout Two Rivers woolens to adopting the fashions of whatever land she’s in, often in more revealing clothing. A lot of this is supposed to be tied to the growing maturity and confidence of each of these women. Not to mention that many of these characters are beginning to see themselves as sexual beings more than they did before their journey, as they go out into the wider world and pursue or are pursued by various people. Rand and Egwene may have been all but betrothed, but it’s clear that all the Two Rivers characters have a relationship best characterized as sibling-esque.
PSA: If anyone else wants to follow yet another first-time WoT reads, I recommend the new weekly podcast The Wheel Weaves, in which a Canadian husband-wife duo — he a longtime WoT devotee, she a first-time reader — discuss the books chapter-by-chapter. It’s allegedly “spoiler free,” but has the types of corrections, background info, and “pay attention to this bit” that are forbidden by some other peoples’ spoiler policies. I’ve started and rapidly stopped listening to three other WoT podcasts in the past, getting bored when they discuss anything other than Shadowspawn (which barely get a mention), but I’m sticking with this one for now because I get much more enjoyment from peoples’ initial emotional reactions and wild speculations.
@23 not mentioning a woman’s breasts isn’t ignoring them, it’s just… not using that word every time you talk about a woman’s chest. If a woman’s arms are crossed, do you really need to note where her arms are in relation to her breasts? Like, the sentence “she crossed her arms” and “she crossed her arms under her breasts” mean the exact same thing (because… where else are a woman’s arms going to cross? over her head?), the only difference is that one of those sentences mentions her breasts. And if he said it once, that would be one thing, but he says it every single time. “She held it to her chest”, “she held it to her heart”, “she held it to her breast”… they all mean the same thing, but he always chose th word ‘breast’…
Breasts are ‘prominent’, but you don’t have to mention them _every single time_ you talk about a woman’s body. I just… it’s weird. There are a few references to women enjoying the site of a man’s bottom, or calf, but imagine a book with passages like “he ran his hand over his round bottom as he checked for his wallet”, or “his ID card in his back pocket, pressed against the curve of his butt cheek”, or “the fabric of the pants stretched across his ample behind”… I imagine those sentences sound weird, and they should. There is no need for those sentences to include any reference to a man’s butt…But that’s what these sentences read like to me. A few times over the course of 14 books, with these sorts of sentences and it wouldn’t really be a thing, might not even have noticed it… but once it starts, it become a near constant thing.
I will give RJ one thing: despite the copious amount of female nudity in the series, he doesn’t focus his writing on any specifics. Somebody is nude in this scene and that’s about all we get. In some odd way, you could even call the series PG-13, despite the death and nudity prevalent in the series. I can’t recall any physical description of any female’s body during the nude scenes. Nothing about how big or small the breasts were. Not that I can recall, in any case.
@37 yeah, he doesn’t get all lurid during the nude scenes in that way. He does, however, find ways to indicate that the women are… buxom. It’s kind of funny (to me) and makes his tastes rather clear. When a woman tries on a new dress, it’s ‘tight across the bosom”, Min thinks to herself that she has more chest to show off than another woman, one female character will notice that another is ‘almost falling out of her dress…”… I think, with the exception of Tuon and maybe Mioraine, all the main (young) women somehow are indicated to have big breasts.
@36 I can not stop laughing at that.
Anyway. Basically what others have said. It’s one thing for Mat’s narration to notice various features of a woman he is attracted to. Or even for some of the other female characters to begin noticing it in relation to their new clothing/standards. But as a rather busty woman myself, I can gaurantee you it’s not a constant part of my internal monologue (nor do my arms go under my breasts when I cross them. They rest right on top of them).
Mat, the unreliable narrator :) It will be interesting to see when he gets to Tuon’s various perceptions of him, years from now. I think basically he doesn’t want to care, because caring means responsibility and obligation. I hated Mat when I first read him, although I find I’m liking him more this time around.
I did kind of LOL at his guesses about hand losing and all that. Sooooo close (and not really related to fireworks, but….).
@35… I really like that podcast…. Dani is a hoot. She is way less clued in than Sylas.
@36 I think you have a fair point…it is a bit quirky, but Jordan is pretty tame. There is only implied sexual activities, with no real descriptions. And no bodice ripping. Except for Mat, I think.
I wonder if, in comparison to other books of the time, Jordan felt the need to remind the reader, that these women had power… in so many books of the time, and in history, women were prizes or rewards or bargaining chips. Thankfully that has changed.
The body language of crossing ones arms over the chest is a closed, unreceptive position…When Nyn or Egwene hold that position, I see it as, “Not only am I saying ‘No’, my whole gender is saying ‘NO’, too.”
@36 I think I’ve read fan fics like that. But they’re in a decidedly different genre than WoT.
Regarding the crossing of arms beneath breasts (why the hell am I even bothering engaging in this pointless discussion?), the few times I actually remember reading that it is used for a purpose. Crossing arms beneath breasts at a time when push-up bra’s wouldn’t have been available means generally that you’d end up emphasizing your breasts. Since it mostly comes up in situations where a woman is having an argument with a man, this is played either as her using her feminine wiles to influence the person she’s talking to or more commonly it’s a gesture made in anger and which then undermines the woman as she is embarrassed and has to decide between flinching or holding the pose in defiance (most commonly the latter, given the kind of female characters most of our notables are). It also gives RJ a chance to write in the mans reaction, which tells us about what kind of person they are. Are they respectful or lecherous? And especially in the interactions between Nynaeve and Valan Luca it ends up mattering a lot because of how she ends up leading him on without realizing.
Avi does describe Eg to Rand.
If Rand’s mood really has an influence on his ta’veren effect it is probably an early version of his Fisher King nature later in the series.
@43 Yeah I’m fairly sure mood doesn’t enter into it but character does. And there’s no consistency to it early on, Rand causes all kinds of freak accidents and miraculous saves early on even though nothing notable changes. So I’d say it’s just bending probability up until around book 6-7 or so, after which we start to see the effects of his character changing altering the pattern around him.
@43: Avi described Elayne, not Egwene. And got one of the story’s more detailed nude descriptions: “She was hard muscle and soft curves; she glistened from head to toe. He had not realized that her legs were so long.” Still a bit vague, as fantasy books can go. Bare or partly-bare bosoms occasionally get described as “nicely rounded” and suchlike.
And we haven’t even gotten to the bathing yet!
Comments section is gonna be weird when Sylas gets to the spanking sections.
When Moiraine arrives to Tear, she too decides to hide her ring. Perrin notes that the ring hangs on a strap around her neck, and that’s it. Breasts are not mentioned. Are you people sure that the breasts thing isn’t dependent on the point-of-view character?
(I wonder how Perrin knows exactly where Moiraine has hidden her ring, but that’s another matter.)
@AeronaGreenjoy (#31):
That’s not a thing I’ve noticed, but hey, maybe that actually is a common feature among Taraboners?
Well, we never find out what Morgase would have done – or what Rahvin could have made her do – if Elayne had disappeared again without sending a letter. It could be said that the purpose of the letter was to prevent an effect rather than to have an effect.
Either way, the other events along the journey are certainly important.
@47 I have been savoring the anticipation of Sylas’s reaction to the entire Perrin/Faile dynamic for a while now. Popcorn will definitely be in order. And then there’s Tylin … the mind reels.
S
Some of RJs descriptions were very tiresome. The breasts thing, the detailed page long clothing descriptions, all the sniffing, just wasn’t that necessary or fun to read. I haven’t found any specific pattern to it, and it could just be that the first two books were much more closely edited, then they decided it didn’t matter and just let him have free rein.
And it’s going to be interesting seeing Syla’s reaction to Aludra and Bayle Domon reappearing throughout the series. Also Egeanin, though she wasn’t my favorite character.
Talk about a long game Chekhov’s Gun, we don’t really see the fruition of this one until ToM
I hope that Mat forms a long-term relationship with Aludra.
Between his ability to obtain money and her need for funding for her little fire-starting sticks, it’s a perfect…
MATCH
@36, gotta agree with you there. I don’t see why breasts need to be mentioned every single time a woman crosses her arms either. I tend to regard it as a verbal tic and ignore it. Or try to.
Wow, the breasts thing really got a lot of traction in the comments section… Fun stuff, but I tend to agree with @36 (one of my few favorite comments, BTW. Very nice!)
Something else picked up my attention. It’s fascinating how we analyze fictional characters as if they were real people with actual motivations and everything else. I’m not criticizing, since I tend to do that too. It’s just an observation.
At the end of the day, Mat is just an expression of Robert Jordan’s mind. How he behaves informs us more about Jordan himself than anything else. In fact, his character was the one who made the change from Jordan to Sanderson more jarring. At least that was my experience.
Regarding breasts- Don’t forget that Jordan has authored several of the Conan books.
@51 The gun does get taken down and dusted when Aludra asks Mat about bell makers.
@56, that’s true, Jordan was a big fan (and master) of those little moments where he alludes just a bit to prior foreshadowing, just enough to remind you about it without drawing too much attention to it. Of course the Dragons weren’t a terribly big surprise when we finally get the official reveal of what they are, but it was fun to watch the slow reveal over the series that Aludra and Mat were working on.
The arms under the breast thing for me is on par with sniffing and braid tugging. At worst it’s slightly annoying but not worth mentioning.
Mat Cauthon + explosives = Eek!